Immigrants - Good or Bad?

[Nice Kick]

Britain is a country which got a very large proportion of foreigners - if we take out tourists and short stay businessmen, there are asylum seekers, foreign workers and their families. The debate is, are they beneficial to the country, or are they a burden to the taxpayers?

In my experience, around some suburb areas of London, there is hardly any peace and security as groups of foreigners often hang around. The locals have no idea of what they are doing, they are speaking of their own languages. I have friends who got mugged by these people. Between these groups they fight each other. The local residents know about this and they can just alert each other on their way home. Most of my neighbours do not like these foreigners. They may not mean to be racist though. It is just unfortunately those sort of troubles always caused by the same groups of people.

Another example is those refugees from Kosovo (I'm not sure their real identities) who come up and beg to the passengers in the tube. Usually they are the women carrying their children around. From the cold response and the eyes of the passengers, they are giving immigrants a bad name.

On the other hand, when I go to the takeaways or cornershops, they are usually owned and managed by foreigners (mostly Asians, Arabs and Turkish). Without their hard work, our lives would certainly not be so convenient. Foreign workers contribute a lot to our economy in a way, like the example above, also from seasonal workers in construction to more high skilled workers.

So should the goverment (as the Tory suggested) tighten immigration rules or are the current rules fine? What is your view to people coming from a foreign country?

[go_away]

My Grandad and Granny moved to Britain in the 1960s from Italy without knowing a word of English. They moved here because work was scarce after the war and this was their only way to get a proper job. They are now fluent in English and own and run a successful business. They have done their 'bit' for society.

There are hundreds of success stories like this, and hundreds of other stories that would want to be swept under the carpet. You cannot just say whether it is good or bad. Cos I could easily turn around and say 'British people - good or bad?' <IMG SRC="smile.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">

[Balddog]

Immigrants....There are many different types, some are great, some are scum.

Go_aways grandparents are an example of the good type. They come to this country to live, work and contribute. These are the kind of people this country needs. Britain has a declining population rate without the immigrants.

Asylum seekers are a harder issue. Being right at the end of western europe, there really is no reason for genuine asylum seekers to come here. There are dozens of safe countries between those dangerous countries and us. If they were after asylum then they could claim it in any number of european countries. Unfortunately we have a good benefits system and very little control which means they will cross the whole of europe to get to the UK, even when it means travelling through so many safe countries.
These are the people we can do without, they are the people we see storming the channel tunnel, stowing away on lorries and threatening to throw their babies off of ferries unless they get into the UK...These are the scum.

There are, of course, genuine asylum seekers. Unfortunately they get caught up with the shitty ones above. Our asylum system is such a pile of shit and requires the people to get into the country before they can claim asylum. It would be better if they could claim asylum at any of our embassies..That would mean the people in need would actually get access a lot more safely and those who are just out to leech would be dealt with before they get here.

[Kentish]

You've pretty much covered this, but something I noticed when I was in Australia is how immigrants, economic migrants, can successfully be integrated into a society.

We all know about Australia's hard-line on asylum seekers, but that is part of the success. Australians recognise the need for immigrants, just like we did in the UK in the 60s, but have a controlled immigration process.

I also think Balddog is right to point out the difference between asylum seekers and honest economic migrants. It seems to me that we have problems in this country recognising the benefits of economic migrants whilst diverting all our resources towards asylum seekers who, it is fair to say, have a reputation for taking and not giving.

Like it or not England is a desirable place to live and it's about time we accepted that and made room for those who want to work for a living too.

[SeaShihtzu']

Yes, but when do you say no then?
How many can this country take, desirable or not.Plus i fear, there aren't many that share your views Kentish. There are plans for a multi-million£ hostel/hotel near us for assylum seekers, surely they could spend all that money on the national-health service or something for the people of this country... after all they are our taxes being used.

[Kentish]

Yeah I know it's a big problem, but don't you think we have some sort of responsibility to those who are less fortunate than us? (Including those in our own country). Or even those who want to make a living in the UK? e.g. foreign doctors/nurses, teachers etc.

It's only because asylum seekers are locked up in camps and isolated from society that they want to come over here illegally, unofficially, and live in slum-like accommodation, working in sweatshops to try and make ends meet.

Perhaps we should try integration rather than segregation, and then maybe we would have fewer problems in places like Oldham and Bolton between the various ethnic groups.

[SeaShihtzu']

Yes we do have to be responsable for those less fortunate than ourselves, like: those from our own country.

[Kentish]

But since illegal immigrants <STRONG>are</STRONG> entering the country, what do we do about them when they get here?

[SeaShihtzu']

What we are doing.... sending them back.
I know it's impractical, and the UK will end up being flooded with them, neither of us could stop it even if we waned to. They have nowhere else to go now.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Asylum seekers facts.

• Asylum seekers are not allowed to claim mainstream welfare benefits. An adult receives just £36.54 vouchers a week, £10 of which is exchangeable for cash - 70% of regular income support. So asylum seekers are forced to live 30% below the poverty line.
• No change is given for vouchers, which are only valid in certain shops and which stigmatise those forced to use them.
• The UK gives asylum seekers less financial support than other European countries, including Belgium, Ireland, and Denmark.
• Iraq, Sri Lanka, Fed. Rep. of Yugoslavia, Iran, Somalia and Afghanistan: these accounted for about half of UK asylum applications in 2000. Serious human rights abuses occur in all of them, including torture - even the British tabloids couldn't deny that.
• As Europe tightens immigration controls, it is now virtually impossible for someone fleeing persecution to reach safety in the UK legally. Those asylum seekers who enter Britain illegally may have had no other option.
• A report by the Association of Chief Police Officers recently confirmed that there is no evidence for a higher rate of criminality among refugees and asylum seekers. In fact, they are often the victims of crime: there have been countless attacks on dispersed asylum seekers around Britain.
• Refugees bring a wealth of skills and experience to this country and their contribution to the British economy, society and culture is immense. If we made more effort to integrate refugees, their contribution would be even greater. Thousands of qualified refugee doctors and nurses have skills that are going to waste while the NHS is desperate for staff.
• Home Office research shows that people born outside the UK (including refugees and asylum seekers) are significant contributors to the economy. It is estimated that they pay 10 per cent more into the treasury coffers than they take out: around £2.6 billion last year.

[Kentish]

I don't like posts where no opinion is offered, where 'facts' are pointed out without any intelligent comment.

Not only have vouchers been scrapped, but a couple of those points are pathetic. What does it matter that we give less to asylum seekers than three countries in Europe?

We know Human Rights abuses take place in many countries all over the world. We can't cram the entire global population onto our little island - you need to be sensible about what we can and cannot do.

As for getting into Europe becoming increasingly difficult for asylum seekers, when was it ever easy to get into Europe without a passport or identity papers? That's not a new thing.

The way to claim asylum legitimately is to do it in the first 'safe' country you get to. For the vast majority of asylum seekers that is not the UK, hence the cynical attitude of the tabloids.

(Can you quote any sources of your information?)

[Balddog]

Originally posted by Kentish:
<STRONG>You've pretty much covered this, but something I noticed when I was in Australia is how immigrants, economic migrants, can successfully be integrated into a society.

We all know about Australia's hard-line on asylum seekers, but that is part of the success. Australians recognise the need for immigrants, just like we did in the UK in the 60s, but have a controlled immigration process.

I also think Balddog is right to point out the difference between asylum seekers and honest economic migrants. It seems to me that we have problems in this country recognising the benefits of economic migrants whilst diverting all our resources towards asylum seekers who, it is fair to say, have a reputation for taking and not giving.

Like it or not England is a desirable place to live and it's about time we accepted that and made room for those who want to work for a living too.</STRONG>

I think thats yet another distinction that needs to be made...There are three groups in this situation that i can see.

Legal immigrants who apply for work visas and then citizenship..Examples being west africans/indians/pakistanis coming here from the commonwealth countries over the past 50 years.

Genuine asylum seekers...If by some miracle they somehow turn up here without having first stopped off at another safe country then they should be allowed to stay. They should also be allowed to stay if they have genuine claims that can be verified.

Now the last group is where the problems lie...Those that try to pass themselves off as asylum seekers when they are simply economic migrants...Now I have no problem with economic migrants, just so long as they dont claim to be asylum seekers, illegally enter the country and claim benefits.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

im so sorry you didnt like my post Kentish. I kind of thought the facts spoke for themselves. i was unaware vouchers had been scrapped. the point about giving asylum seekers less than in other countries was because a lot of people seem to think that we give immigrants lots and lots of money in benefits whereas in actual fact they are forced to live 30% below the poverty line.Yes human rights violations do occur all over the world and no we cant cram them all into our country but we can do our best to help those less fortunate even if they are *gasp* foreigners! why does it have to be a case of `us` and `them`. there are plenty of things wrong with this country, peoples selfish attitude of `im alright jack, pull the ladder up` is one of them

[Balddog]

rainbow..

I dont think there is an attitude of "im alright jack, pull the ladder up"...Just that we have more than enough of our own problems in this country without importing more...Barely a day goes by when we dont see some pensioner in the news having been in an awful situation..Or something wrong with the schools, or the public services or the out of control crime..Do you know how many pensioners live 30% below the poverty line despite the fact that they have paid taxes their entire lives?..Its a hell of a lot more than the number of asylum seekers we have.

We may have an obligation to help those less fortunate than us but why cant we start with those who actually live here? We cannot help everyone at the same time..

I dont give a crap about the nationality of these people but surely its just common sense to fix the problems in our own back yard instead of pretending they dont exist and importing more problems.

[amz]

Grrr, this really winds me up... many immigrants are willing to learn the language and willing to help in our country. I saw a tv program about Spanuish coming to work as nurses, which I think is great. But many asylam seekers just collect money and live wihout the need to work or make any effort... <IMG SRC="mad.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> Ok...they do suffer in their own country, but today, I saw large families walking around shopping, each with mobile phones and branded sports wear, <IMG SRC="mad.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> surely this isn't fair?? I have walked through my local streets and many of the men have said dirty comments (which must be the only english they know) to me and my friends, and they do no good at all or our city. When the immigrants burned down that centre they had been put in in england, where they were kept warm and well fed...grrrr <IMG SRC="mad.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> annoyed me sooo much... I think that there are almost as many immigrants that cannot speak a word of english where I live as locals. I see them walking around all day doing nothing, and then see them go out and get drunk at night. <IMG SRC="mad.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> its our money being spent on all these people. If they want a sports centre they get it- no questinos asked, whereas if a english community want it they say there is not enough money to spend on things like that..

Anyway...sorry its so long, please dont criticise my oppinion, it just gets me so angry!!
<IMG SRC="eek.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">

[ 13-04-2002: Message edited by: amz ]